Tom Wardell chairs the corporate department of McKenna Long & Aldridge. He focuses on corporate counseling, corporate finance and securities. He represents public and private companies, state agencies and mutual fund complexes. Tom was involved with the financial restructuring of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and Penn Central Railroad Company. He has been an adjunct professor at Boston University School of Management and a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School. From 1988 to 1993 Tom was president and CEO of Versyss, the largest provider in the U.S. of computer systems for physician practices and credit unions and one of the top three for the construction and building supply industries. He received his A.B. from Harvard College and his J.D. from Harvard Law School. Contact: twardell@mckennalong.com or www.mckennalong.com.

On October 15, 2004 The Complete Lawyer (TCL) interviewed Tom Wardell at the Atlanta offices of McKenna Long & Aldridge.

• Why Do You Think Mentoring Is Important Today?
• What Are The Characteristics Of A Good Mentor?
• What Does Openness Mean To You?
• So What Happens Here If The Work Product Isn't Available When Promised? Does That Happen Often?
• How Does A Mentor Teach And Coach Young People On Building Effective Relationships?
• You Mean They Are Oblivious That They Have A Problem?
• What Do You Think The Responsibility Of The Associate Is In The Mentoring Process?
• What In Your Mind Is The Business Case For Mentoring?
• Why Do So Many Lawyers Still Not See Value In Developing Their Colleagues In Skills Other Than The Purely Technical?

TCL: Why Do You Think Mentoring Is Important Today?

For me the best and most all encompassing place to start is to talk about the culture. I have been a CEO and happen to believe that culture is everything. Consequently if you are going to build a culture in which people are empowered to do their best and are encouraged to do their best it means you have to infuse people into that culture as they come aboard.

How does that happen? With job descriptions and job assignments of course but also with an expectation of having relationships with the people you are going to be working with. If you are a junior person you come in with a real sense of knowing you are subordinate and you are looking for leadership and for guidance about whether you are doing your job well, how you can do it better and how you can grow into taking on more responsibility. That's how career paths are built.

It doesn't happen for anybody but that there are mentors. That's simply the way life works. If you are management you have a definite desire to have the culture teach those things. Why? Because it's easier. If your culture is right then it takes care of infusing people with your core values, it takes care of encouraging them to do their best, it takes care of getting them the commentary and the critique that they need in order for them to grow and continue their career path.

How do you keep the culture fed so that it automatically does that? You train your supervisors. So that they know how to mentor and they know how to hold people accountable and they know how to part ways with the stinkers and they know how to make sure that that culture is protected. To me, it begins that simply.

Start wherever you like. You can put your focus on mentoring associates because you don't want the young people to leave. You can put your focus on partners because you don't want them doing non-supervisory work. If the associates leave the partners are going to have to do the associates' work. Part of why mentoring is so important is because it gives people the strength to "leverage" themselves and to "leverage" the people around them.

I personally think that mentoring is as important between my assistant and me as it is between me and other lawyers. To be effective I want an assistant like the one I have right now - where I can say quite simply, this is the kind of letter I need. Could you get me a draft? I routinely say to people, if you want to get on my calendar don't send it to me because I don't own my calendar, my assistant does. She tells me when I'm going to be in court and which plane I'm on.

That lets me bill more time. That lets me be efficient. If I don't handle it correctly with her then all she's doing is taking one-off instructions from me. Period.

TCL: What Are The Characteristics Of A Good Mentor?

I think it starts with the ability to frame and state expectations clearly. And then, without shyness, to establish deadlines, levels of responsibility, and expectations as to quality. So that if I'm the mentor the person I've just been talking with walks out of the room knowing clearly what is expected of them, clearly what level of quality I'm looking for, when I expect that to be returned to me as well as some sense of what the next step is going to look like. That clarity, that ability to define what you are looking for is first and foremost the most important thing.

Now, you have to do it! If you are going to get success I keep coming back to the fact that it's all about "leveraging" myself when I'm in that mentoring role. If you are going to achieve success there are a number of ways in presenting that clarity. I can present something just as I described it and frankly scare the hell out of somebody. If they walk out of that door scared they are going to waste a certain amount of time. They are either going to overwork the problem or they're going to waste the time of a more senior person asking for their help in deciphering what I really meant. Scaring them to death is counterproductive.

I can be clear but be excessively laid back. That too has its shortcomings. The too-laid-back-mentor is conveying a sense that "almost" gets there. And "almost" doesn't get there.

Clarity should convey with it a sense that what you are looking for is absolutely the finest product possible and you want it done in an efficient fashion. That doesn't mean that people can't be themselves and have a good time, but that message of clarity is paramount.

Step two is accountability. That means when the product comes back you are clear with the person about where it falls short, about where it meets up with expectations, and about how it exceeds expectations - "Gosh, that's an idea that had not occurred to me! Glad you took the time to dig deeper and do that." We don't give enough positive reinforcement in our profession. Every single one of us appreciates being appreciated.

I think it's also important to be talking about career with the folks you are mentoring. Those are deliberate moments. You take the person you are working with aside and say let's talk about what you have in mind with your career. What's this about for you? Where are you heading?

I have a personal way of talking about someone's career plan. I like to say, you live your life in chapters. This is my fifth law firm. I had a five-and-a-half year period as a CEO. I had a year as a retiree. Not a good thing! (Laughs)

I always live with a two-year plan and a five-year plan. While it will never look like what you plan for, by planning it you will actually develop those goals and achievements along the way that satisfy you. I'm a living example: Although I planned on a couple of years here I'm now in my tenth year and having a blast! My five-year plan was turned on its ear. That's just the way life works.

In the mentoring relationship the channel between the mentor and mentee needs to be open. And the only way to keep that channel open is if the mentor gets comfortable with the fact that the person you are mentoring may not be here forever. And there may be any number of reasons why that may happen. But you know what? It makes terrific business sense.

If when that person leaves, they leave feeling they had a wonderful experience in building their portfolio here and they liked the people and it was a great place to work then the firm and the mentor will have done their jobs. Most important we want them to feel like they walked out of here with the best portfolio they could have at the end of X number of years, that they can say to themselves, I know that I am as well positioned as I could possibly be at this point in my career.

When I interview students I say be selfish. How are you going to be positioned in two years? Five years? As a lawyer. Is this a place where you can train?

I don't think mentoring is a question of style. I do think mentoring is a question of openness. Of people being willing to have that kind of dialogue.

TCL: What Does Openness Mean To You?

The first thing that comes to my mind is a genuine interest in knowing this person sitting across from you. What are they thinking? What have they thought about this part of the agenda in the conversation you are having? I think that means that the responsibility is mine as the mentor to fashion questions that get people started. I need to be able to say, now what do you think about this? I tend to be somebody who thinks and thinks and thinks and only then do I talk. And then I question.

I will usually begin with an open-ended question. And then listen. I think one very good technique for keeping someone like myself under control and for encouraging the other person to open up further is to say, well, let me tell you what I just heard. And then I play back what I just heard. Often what I play back isn't exactly what was said but it is what was intended. And that will then encourage someone to open up further. For a couple of reasons. I may not have heard it accurately. But if I have heard it accurately, especially if I've had to distill what they've said from what they've told me there is an easing of any kind of tension. Aha, he is paying attention to what I'm saying. Therefore the floodgates can open.

I use this with clients when it has nothing to do with mentoring. I have had any number of clients comment on the fact that I will almost always say, let me make sure I have this right. Then I wind up asking three or four more peripheral questions, all aimed at getting it right, because part of what I'm getting paid for is to think of the ramifications. To consider the ripple effect of what we are talking about. And the solution that I'm being asked to provide.

So, that's what I do. An integral part of mentoring is what I would call holding people accountable. None of us grows but that we are able to measure what we've done against what was expected. None of us.

And that remains true even when you are my age. So, the job of the mentor with people who are new to the practice and who stay with the firm for four to six years is to hold people accountable. Accountable in a way that they can incorporate their shortcomings into the next task if you will. And that accountability can be, "you're late. I needed this Friday. We both knew the deadline and here it is Tuesday afternoon." Now that doesn't happen in my practice because if I needed it Friday and I don't have it Friday there's going to be an exchange about that before Friday's over.

That is a discipline that everyone needs to learn. Because here is what happens if that doesn't occur. First of all, it impinges on the relationship between the senior and the junior. Secondly, as a work habit it is very poor in terms of client relations. If you tell a client you are going to have something by Friday and it doesn't show up until Tuesday afternoon and you haven't called, well that's stupid. So people need to learn that accountability is in their best interests. They want to be held accountable.

TCL: So What Happens Here If The Work Product Isn't Available When Promised? Does That Happen Often?

Sure. Because of what we do. If I hand someone an assignment and it becomes apparent that the project's got a whole lot more in it than what we'd identified then the minute they can see that the Friday deadline is no longer realistic, they let me know. We establish another deadline. We let the client know right away. Clients are very aware that they are asking us to solve things that very often don't have enough clear definition to be able to put a clear time line on them. But you've got to put some kind of time line on the project. So as things get clearer and clearer you keep defining that time line and that deadline.

That's what happens in my practice. And frankly that one's so easy that it doesn't take more than one or two times before you've made the point, "hey, if the deadline falls apart I expect to be told."

TCL: How Does A Mentor Teach And Coach Young People On Building Effective Relationships?

If for example we are talking about counseling someone regarding how you work with "Mr. Difficult" whether internally or externally, here's how I come at it.

I try and understand the problem. Then let's assume the problem is the relationship and not the quality of the work. If it is the relationship it is almost always true that "Mr. Difficult" partner has the same problem with lots of other people. So my job as a mentor is to help the young lawyer understand that that is the case, offer what tips I can about how to cope. For example, just try and let it roll off your back. This is not going to impact your future here.

As a manager one thing I can try and achieve is to maker sure that my mentee is not at the mercy of the difficult partner too much of the time. There are occasions when people are forced out of a relationship because it cannot work and doesn't work.

Part of my job is to make that happen. To literally strip away from that partner the ability to have access to that associate. You talk to any associate in any law firm and they'll tell you quickly who the hazardous-duty partners are and they'll be very quick to tell you whether or not the firm does anything about that or tries to limit people's exposure to it.

In my own case, what I also do is talk with those partners. Unfortunately those conversations are often met with absolute incredulity.

TCL: You Mean They Are Oblivious That They Have A Problem?

Yes. And while I am not a real student in this area, I would suggest to you that they have built such a strong wall of defenses against recognition of their reputation that they can't take in any feedback to the contrary. You know pretty quickly whether you're going to be truly heard by this person or not.

Frankly by the time people are partners in most cases these kinds of behaviors are in their hard drives. (Laughs)

TCL: What Do You Think The Responsibility Of The Associate Is In The Mentoring Process?

It isn't all that different from the role of the mentor. The first and most important trait is having the guts to speak up. If you haven't got it temperamentally you're going to have to learn it. When you come in the door that's the most significant trait for me. Because I don't ever wind up looking at anybody who hasn't got the brains for the job. I'm looking for people whose resumes reflect comfort in taking responsibility, comfort in acting independently, comfort in taking on something unknown and doing a good job. Why am I looking for that? Because I'm pretty sure that person is going to be comfortable walking through my door and saying, you know you told me the problem looked like this but the more I look at it I think it doesn't look that way at all.

I need people to do that, because if they don't what I'm going to get is a product that's wrong or it's just going to be very awkward. So, first and foremost is guts. Somebody who's comfortable enough with themselves and with asking the questions that they can interface with someone who knows a whole lot more about the subject matter than they do; who knows a whole lot more about life itself than they do and still feel comfortable about suggesting right and wrong pathways. It has to be someone who can hear that what I am critiquing is the work and not the person. That is the most critical trait. The rest of it, as far as I'm concerned is simply the obverse of what we talked about with the mentor's skills. You've got to be able to listen, you've got to be able to frame your questions, you've got to be able to speak clearly and make things well defined. You've got to live up to deadlines or get them refashioned. It really is the other half of the egg if you will.

TCL: What In Your Mind Is The Business Case For Mentoring?

There is so much chatter about the business case for mentoring resting upon retention of young lawyers and women, which is certainly true. The business case is, we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training people and learning them up in a substantive area of the law in which we need them, and then they go out the door. And they go out the door in part because they haven't been properly mentored.

I completely agree with the fact that that is a definite problem and a business case, but let's push it a little further. Why is it that it's so upsetting that they go out the door? It's because those of us who are partners have suddenly lost the "leverage effect."

And I would suggest to you that you look at any quality so-called rainmaker, and I don't like that word, but what that person is doing is "leveraging" him or herself. The reason he or she is able to do that is because they have at least some measure of mentoring skills. The people who leverage furthest and most efficiently and successfully I would suggest to you are really quite good at mentoring. Why? Because the thing we haven't talked about expressly but we've been talking about all along is, they are very good at delegating to another person as much as that person can handle. My single biggest problem at this point in my career is keeping up with what other lawyers are doing for my clients who expect me to keep up with everything that's going on in their relationship with the firm.

That's a great problem to have, a perfect problem to have. Most of my days are in ten to 20 minute bites, in which I have wound up billing six-and-a-half to seven hours over a ten to eleven hour period, the rest of it is in admin. Those billed hours are all in ten to 20 minute bites with maybe three client conversations that are as much as 30 minutes each. Well think about that. That means I've got eight to ten people in the trenches delivering work product to those very same clients. Because if I'm having a 15-minute conversation it's an editing conversation, an interpretive conversation, it's three more questions, all in one way or another fringe stuff, but fringe stuff that's at the very heart of what's going on with the client. Which means somebody's doing a whole lot of work for that client. And if I'm getting that "leverage effect" that's my bottom line and it's the firm's bottom line.

So I think we are just not extending the telescope far enough when we talk about it being solely about retention. Why do I want to retain these people? Because I want to continue to make my clients happy. And if they leave I've got to train up somebody else to do the same thing.

TCL: Why Do So Many Lawyers Still Not See Value In Developing Their Colleagues In Skills Other Than The Purely Technical?

I think the billable hour has something to do with it. I also think it has to do with who goes to law school. A very high percentage of people who go to law school do not have highly developed interpersonal skills. They know they can get well paid if they are just very good at what they do and they migrate into this place where they may have one person who works for them for an extended period of time and that'll get them through for a while. It isn't until their clients start to crab about the bills that they begin to face what is going on. If they face it at all.

I have, I guess, one of the highest billing rates in Atlanta. Yet I never have a problem with my billing rate. Why? Because nobody has to eat a whole lot of my time. Whenever they get a bill they see they are getting only a fractional piece of me.

Mentoring is perceived to be one of those "soft" skills people will acquire when they find the time. A "nice to have" if you will. What I'm suggesting to you is mentoring is one of those fundamental skills that we should consider a part of the substantive requirements of being a lawyer.